MyDD :: Debunking the Youth Vote Myth

Debunking the Youth Vote Myth

by hootie4170, Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 08:19:53 PM EST

This diary is intended for only those people who consistently make a fuss about the younger generation of voters who support Obama. These people have labeled these voters as "naive", "green", "inexperienced", "adolescents", "immature", "amateurs", "juvenile", "don't know any better", ""ignorant on the issues", "drinking the kool-aid",etc.

I give to you a recent pew research finding....

One pattern that differs from previous surveys of political knowledge is that younger voters are significantly more knowledgeable about the candidates' positions than are older voters. For example, 60% of voters 18-29 correctly say that Obama is pro-choice, compared with just 51% of those ages 50-64 and just 41% of those ages 65 and older.

Your Honor, I rest my case...

http://people-press.org/report/?pageid=1 336

Click the link for the table...

Tags: 2008 General Election, Obama, McCain, Youth Vote (all tags)

Permalink :: 48 Comments :: Post a Comment

Re: Debunking the Youth Vote Myth (none / 0)

People over the age of 50 may be less knowledgeable of Obama's pro-choice because they are less concerned about the consequences of pregnancy.

Note how the percentage drops according to the age of the participants.

"No self-respecting woman should wish or work for the success of a party that ignores her." - Susan B. Anthony

by feelfree on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 08:28:44 PM EST

Re: Debunking the Youth Vote Myth (2.00 / 1)

Does that account for a similar trend in the numbers presented for the other position polled?

Yes, I'm aware there's a possible misogynist reading of the myth. Sorry.

by Endymion on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 08:33:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debunking the Youth Vote Myth (2.00 / 1)

I could be mistaken but to base how knowledgeable a group is based two items, abortion and the withdrawal time table, is making a wild generalization. I find the conclusion "naive".

If one of those questions was about medicare or social security the results would be vastly different.

"No self-respecting woman should wish or work for the success of a party that ignores her." - Susan B. Anthony

by feelfree on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 08:53:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debunking the Youth Vote Myth (2.00 / 3)

You're contesting hard data with pure speculation. I don't think it's fair to assume that older people are only concerned with issues that directly affect them.

by semiquaver on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 09:02:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debunking the Youth Vote Myth (2.00 / 1)

You have reached a conclusion I haven't made.

There is plenty of knowledge to go around.

However I think it is common sense to conclude people may be more knowledgeable about issues that directly affects them.

One thing I know for sure is that hard cold data is often skewed to say whatever the researcher or poll wants it to say. Here they used items that a younger demographic may be following more closely.

"No self-respecting woman should wish or work for the success of a party that ignores her." - Susan B. Anthony

by feelfree on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 09:11:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debunking the Youth Vote Myth (none / 0)

Pew isn't exactly a fly-by-night outfit. It's easy to question the methodology of a study that you disagree with. Would you have done the same if you agreed with its conclusions?

by semiquaver on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 09:48:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debunking the Youth Vote Myth (none / 0)

I am not questioning anything. It is not about whether I agree or disagree.

The generalization that has been made is not supported by the data.

"No self-respecting woman should wish or work for the success of a party that ignores her." - Susan B. Anthony

by feelfree on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 11:40:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Potentially True (2.00 / 3)

You may be correct, and I would like to have seen more polling on a wider range of issues, but both war and abortion are generally considered to be universally important, and issues that the candidates are both fairly clear about. These two issues are likely the best choices to poll, given a limitation of two questions in the poll.
And I find your editorializing needlessly provocative. The idea that someone who's criticism presupposes a knowledge of the constraints and compensations of real-world polling would refer to analysis of that polling as "naive" is laughable. I must conclude that your preconceptions are driving your argument.

Yes, I'm aware there's a possible misogynist reading of the myth. Sorry.

by Endymion on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 09:20:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Agree, only 2 issues (none / 0)

and frankly, abortion rights aren't that crucial to most voters this election.

Also, this soon after the primary, about half the voters were backing Clinton and were more familiar with her position on the issues. Those preferences were based more on more important economic issues like health care reform,trade policy, jobs, Social Security, etc.

Obama also doesn't talk a great deal about the issues. During the primary, most voters who were not supercommitted Obama supporters never learned much about his position on key issues. And even Obama waffled and dodged on the details,especially on health care reform and trade policy.

Not much can be learned from this survey, but it would be interesting to see the results of a more in-depth and better designed survey.

by Betsy McCall on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 10:40:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debunking the Youth Vote Myth (2.00 / 1)

If you read the quote, that was just an example. The core message was this..

One pattern that differs from previous surveys of political knowledge is that younger voters are significantly more knowledgeable about the candidates' positions than are older voters.

Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.

by hootie4170 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 08:48:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debunking the Youth Vote Myth (2.00 / 1)

I happen to agree with him on late term ones now that he has clarified but the line is drawn so disingenuous folks can make a noise about. but seriously you are talking about the difference between "book knowledge" and having real experience. You can be the at the top of your class and still not have a lick of sense. Kids that age range HAVE to be "naive", "green", "inexperienced", "adolescents", "immature", "amateurs", "juvenile", "don't know any better". That is how you learn after all. The other ones you tossed in are no worse then the ones "they" like to toss at anyone older then they are who have actually lived long enough to see the world more then they have.

So what's your point? Does that somehow excuse all the screaming insults they like to shout in peoples faces when they caqn't convince them?

by zerosumgame on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 08:29:34 PM EST

Re: Debunking the Youth Vote Myth (2.00 / 2)

What is this "real experience" you speak of? For Christ's sake if a person doesn't know where the candidates stand on the issues, I don't care if they voted since Lincoln and are 124 years old.

And bullshit to your comment that "kids" have to be "naive", etc. I have known many 18-30 year olds that act much more "mature" than older people who don't act their age.

Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.

by hootie4170 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 08:46:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debunking the Youth Vote Myth (none / 0)

well, I didn't toss any insults at you. So what triggered this outburst from you?

by zerosumgame on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 08:52:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debunking the Youth Vote Myth (none / 0)

What insult? Just because I called "bullshit" on part of your comment?

Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.

by hootie4170 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 08:56:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debunking the Youth Vote Myth (2.00 / 1)

well, yes since that implies that I am lying and a liar. Somehow I do consider that an "insult", funny how you seem to think every word that pours out of you as golden and anyone who has a different opinion is a liar spreading "bullshit". Says a lot about you.

by zerosumgame on Fri Jul 11, 2008 at 11:03:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debunking the Youth Vote Myth (none / 0)

I thought Democracy involved dissent...

Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.

by hootie4170 on Fri Jul 11, 2008 at 02:45:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Think of real experience (2.00 / 1)

as "translational" knowledge. Its not enough to know the details of a proposed policy; its even more important to know how that policy will translate into success or failure, systemic change vs limited effect, or how other factors influence the outcome.

Learning and education is a lifelong process. Young voters should be reconsider the constant bashing of everyone over 30. Its foolish and is costing them credibility.

by Betsy McCall on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 10:51:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Think of real experience (2.00 / 1)

And people over 30 should reconsider the bashing of everyone under 30 as inexperienced, naive children. It is foolish and does not show maturity.

"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson

by MS01 Indie on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 10:53:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Here's a way to deal with it (2.00 / 1)

Discuss issues instead of making personal judgements.

by Betsy McCall on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 10:58:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here's a way to deal with it (none / 0)

I was answering directly to your comment. How much more closely can I stick to the subject you brought up?

"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson

by MS01 Indie on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 11:07:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Betsy (2.00 / 1)

We're too inexperienced and naive to discuss issues, remember? We don't know what we're talking about. We need life experience to understand.

The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.

by nrafter530 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 11:19:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Think of real experience (none / 0)

And vice-versa. It is not solely a one way street.

Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.

by hootie4170 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 10:55:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Think of real experience (none / 0)

Hootie you've been busy today. Cheers

by Politicalslave on Fri Jul 11, 2008 at 02:26:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debunking the Youth Vote Myth (2.00 / 2)

So what's your point? Does that somehow excuse all the screaming insults they like to shout in peoples faces when they caqn't convince them?

You're making unwarranted generalizations. In my experience on this site, many of the people who have self-identified as being older are just as prone to hysterics and mean-spirited insults. Anyway, other than the few people who have talked about their age, how do you determine who's young here? I hope you don't assume that anyone acting like you've described is young, because that would be a syllogism, wouldn't it?

by semiquaver on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 08:49:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debunking the Youth Vote Myth (2.00 / 3)

I think this invites the argument that all of these claims of "screaming insults they like to shout in peoples faces" are overblown, a case of the fallacy of examples rather than indications of widespread behavior. Witness that when reports surfaced in the primary (briefly) of an Obama youth staffer displaying a ridiculous level of message control and a reluctance to speak to the press, this inspired some of our elders to collectively compare young Obama supporters to robots. The sense is that an exclusivist fear reaction will be elicited from the current dominant generation toward the future dominant generation(s) based upon whatever excuse presents itself. The real problem is this propensity to fear youth, it is a weakness that leads to discrediting one's natural allies and obscures genuine criticism.
Youth need to have their enthusiasm tempered sometimes. The way is to work alongside them.

Yes, I'm aware there's a possible misogynist reading of the myth. Sorry.

by Endymion on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 08:51:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debunking the Youth Vote Myth (2.00 / 1)

I've never met an Obama supporter who had a problem with older voters. We have a problem with low-info voters of any age.

by ProgressiveDL on Fri Jul 11, 2008 at 07:58:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debunking the Youth Vote Myth (none / 0)

And by low-info, I mean voters who willfully and purposefully go out of their way not to learn about issues so that they can feel justified in buying into rightwing soundbites and talking points (Obama is a Muslim, he isn't a citizen, he flipped Hillary the bird).

by ProgressiveDL on Fri Jul 11, 2008 at 07:59:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debunking the Youth Vote Myth (1.50 / 2)

or like the "as far as i know" comment given after HRC being badgered and repeatedly asked the same question and that last comment treated like it was her trying to say he is muslim? Or how about the cries of "RACIST" every time a statment of fact was made? Or gee, how about all those young folk doing their level best to game ratings sytems on blogs so as to hide or ban anyone who had a different opinion? Nah, that is just being "reasonable" to the likes of you and your ilk.

by zerosumgame on Fri Jul 11, 2008 at 11:06:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debunking the Youth Vote Myth (none / 0)

Well, saying "you and your ilk" is an outright asshole statement. There, I said it. Calling us all "young folk" is just ignorant. So if you don't want to actually discuss the point (none of which was about or aimed at Hillary...I was referring to people of all parties that don't think for themselves and buy into the media bullshit), then fuck you too.

by ProgressiveDL on Fri Jul 11, 2008 at 01:46:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debunking the Youth Vote Myth (none / 0)

I think you are selling the youth vote short. Yes there are a lot of kids out there that need to grow up and if there is a doubt of that in anyone's head, i invite them to visit their local college. There are younger people as well that are going out and informing themselves on the issues. I think the bigger problem is that kids are going out and voting solely on who their parents vote for. There is nothing worse than someone voting without the knowledge needed to make an informed decision.

BTW, these "immature" "adolescents" are the same ones that are going off to war. Maybe they deserve a bit more respect.

Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. -Plato

by selfevident on Fri Jul 11, 2008 at 11:45:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Of Course (2.00 / 4)

What is important, however, is not being 'smarter.' Rather, we are challenged to find ways to exhibit that wisdom without seeming to attack those who are held by our culture to have a perpetual 'wisdom advantage.'

Yes, I'm aware there's a possible misogynist reading of the myth. Sorry.

by Endymion on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 08:31:51 PM EST

I wouldn't say they're ignorant.... (2.00 / 1)

....I would say that the majority of the "younger generation" voters are most likely very well informed; they just don't care whether or not Obama changes his opinion. They'll support him no matter what. IMO of course.

by soyousay on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 08:48:04 PM EST

Re: I wouldn't say they're ignorant.... (2.00 / 2)

My experience is that they do care and they'll support him no matter what. But if you've ever done data entry or other office drudgery for a campaign, there tends not to be much shop talk beyond your basic gushing; I would imagine that the Obama campaign is not so newfangled and change-y that it ain't the same in one of their offices; so the strongest supporters, those who's lives revolve around interactions with other strong supporters, may not be getting exposed to criticisms of the candidate at all.

Yes, I'm aware there's a possible misogynist reading of the myth. Sorry.

by Endymion on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 09:00:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I wouldn't say they're ignorant.... (none / 0)

My experience is that they do care and they'll support him no matter what.

Oh I see, they care about Obama but don't care if he changes his stances; you yourself said that they'll support him no matter what.

by soyousay on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 09:08:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Clarification (2.00 / 1)

No, they care if he changes his positions. It upsets them, and not just because it makes voter outreach and fundraising and volunteer recruitment more difficult, although it does. The sense of betrayal you feel when you find out someone isn't what you believed is just as severe in the young, if not worse. So they bitch online and they bitch to their friends and they bitch wherever and whenever they're not acting as an ambassador for the campaign. And then they go back to work.

Yes, I'm aware there's a possible misogynist reading of the myth. Sorry.

by Endymion on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 09:32:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clarification (none / 0)

I'm not necessarily THAT young (almost 28), but I get pissed about some of his more recent stances (FISA, the gun control, death penalty). But I have to hope beyond hope that it's all about getting elected and that he'll come back to the liberal positions he's exhibited for his entire political life. If not, that sucks and I'm going to be very pissed for 4 years. But I'm totally content with believing that it's all about tricking Republicans and Centrists into taking the medicine that is good for them (and for us).

by ProgressiveDL on Fri Jul 11, 2008 at 08:04:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

As part of that (2.00 / 1)

younger generation, what I see is that they too change their stances on issues literally overnight.

The war is a good example. I remember EVERYBODY I knew supported the war when it started and those same people are the ones today who are acting holier than thou about ending the war, flaming Clinton for voting for it and now Obama for not tying himself down to the 16 month deadline.

It irks me to see the very people I hold responsible for this war try to act like that.

The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.

by nrafter530 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 10:25:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: As part of that (2.00 / 1)

well, that is that experience thing the diarist bashed so heavily above. You can know Grey's Anatomy by heart but I really would not want you to do heart surgery with just that to go on. Things change and are more complex then it is possible to teach without your having lived through it.

by zerosumgame on Fri Jul 11, 2008 at 11:10:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Except (none / 0)

none of our candidates had all that much experience. Obama's been in national politics for less than four years, Edwards less than 10, and Clinton's been in elected office for seven years, before that she was just married to a politician, doesn't give you anymore experience than trying t be a heart surgeon from watching Grey's.

But the three of them have had years upon years of experience outside of the political realm that we take account, as activists.

If you were voting on experience. You would really had to have backed McCain once Richardson, Dodd and Biden were out.

The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.

by nrafter530 on Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 01:06:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debunking the Youth Vote Myth (2.00 / 3)

Calling all young voters naive is as silly as labeling all seniors as senile. I'm an older voter and I don't buy into the young/inexperienced/naive vs older/wiser/experienced BS. Who would you rather trust, a 25 year-old with a high IQ, college degree, and international travel experience or a 60 year-old with below average intelligence who has worked at one manual labor job their entire life and has never traveled more than 50 miles from home? What if the 25 year-old is well-informed and engaged while the 60 year-old gets all their news from an occasional 30 second spot on tv? Do you trust someone who reads books or someone who has never read a book in their life?

There are a heck of a lot of things in life that matter more than longevity when it comes to wisdom. Albert Einstein was 19 when he wrote his most significant papers. Alexander was in his early twenties when he conquered half the known world. History is replete with examples like those.

"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson

by MS01 Indie on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 09:28:35 PM EST

You could call a person. .... (none / 0)

who reads a Driver's manual 'well educated' on driving, but that 'well educated' person would not have the 'experience' of a driver who had driven for 30 or 40 years.

There is a difference between 'relative inexperience' and 'experience', and yes, being well informed or well educated does give folks a good basis for making their choices, but I stil feel that experience goes a long way also. Folks with experience expect a candidate to run as a centrist for the GE,and folks who are 'well informed or well educated' on the candidates and the issues may not expect that to occur.

Anyway, there's far too much crap being slung about this issue. It's good to get the youth vote on 'our' side. Likewise. it's good to keep the mature vote on 'our' side. It's insane to continue insults towards either group.

Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?

by emsprater on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 09:46:04 PM EST

My aunt (2.00 / 4)

has been driving since 1972 and I wouldnt get in a car with her.

My 18 year old cousin has been driving since March and I'd rather be in the car with her.

Some people are just good at things and some are bad, doesn't matter how many years experience they have with something.

Obama, I believe, is one of those few people who doesn't need years under his belt because he's just naturally good. We have interns like that at work whom I would, if I could, put them in jobs above entry level, because they're just GOOD.

The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.

by nrafter530 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 10:28:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My aunt (2.00 / 2)

using one data point to try to draw a conclusion is a fallacy. Your aunt is one person, and then again what are the stats for younger drivers vs accidents?

by zerosumgame on Fri Jul 11, 2008 at 11:14:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My aunt (none / 0)

Most people who are involved in accidents either don't know or obey the laws of the road...Similarly, people who who don't know or care about the issues and just vote on perceptions are naive as well.

Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.

by hootie4170 on Fri Jul 11, 2008 at 02:50:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

about the same (none / 0)

as eldery drivers, most of whom have been driving for longer than we were born.

The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.

by nrafter530 on Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 01:02:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debunking the Youth Vote Myth (2.00 / 1)

I call them "Those con-sarn-ed whipper-snappers" with their new fangled ideas and that crap they call music! Why in my day we didn't get the paper every day and there wasn't talk-radio and the world was a good bit less fuckedup, as I recall.

"But not me personally were those cheers for"

by QTG on Fri Jul 11, 2008 at 08:44:00 AM EST

Re: Debunking the Youth Vote Myth (2.00 / 1)

My 19 year old have more common sense (when it comes to politics) that most of my co-workers. He actually spends more time talking about the issues, because he has not yet become jaded and convinced that his vote doesn't matter.

accepting McLettuce is like being 9 years old and forced to eat your own cooking

by Sychotic1 on Fri Jul 11, 2008 at 09:56:12 AM EST

Anyone remember the ... (none / 0)

"B" movie from the late 1960's called 'Wild in the Streets'?

You all should see it.

I particularly like the very last scene.

Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?

by emsprater on Fri Jul 11, 2008 at 12:55:31 PM EST

You are not logged in.

In order to post a comment, you must be logged in. If you have a member account, please log in to comment.

If not, you can make an account right here. It's quick and free.