The Second Amendment and the Right to Bear Arms

The United States Constitution is the longest serving doctrine of democracy in world history.  The Second Amendment of the U.S. Constitution states:  "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed".  

http://civilliberty.about.com/od/guncont rol/p/2nd_amendment.htm

Barack Obama has stated, in response to a recently decided Supreme Court ruling, District of Columbia v. Heller, that struck down the District of Columbia's prohibition on handguns:  "(I) always believed that the 2nd Amendment protects the right of individuals to bear arms, but I also identify with the need for crime-ravaged communities to save their children from the violence that plagues our streets through common-sense, effective safety measures."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-g uns-obama-mccainjun27,0,5693711.story

more...

July 27, 2008, a recipient of the freedoms of the U.S. Constitution, specifically, the protection provided by the Second Amendment, which allows a U.S.  citizen to bear arms, "(opened) fire with a shotgun...killing two people at a Unitarian Universalist church apparently target(ing)
the congregation out of hatred for its support of liberal social policies".

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/28 /jim-d-adkisson-charged-in_n_115281.html

The question for Democrats (and all Americans) is:  If the Second Amendment protects the right to bear arms, (and/or guarantees military supplies to an 18th-century "well-regulated militia", that has since been replaced by the U.S. Armed Forces)  what arms do Americans feel the need to bear in order to protect themselves; and from whom, from what?  

I state, bearing arms leads to more arms bearing.  The detriment to all is illustrated by the actions of an arms bearing citizen and his actions on July 27, 2008.

Barack Obama, I'm watching; I'm listening.  The right to bear arms, as construed by our 18th century Forefathers holds a different meaning in our 21st century lives.  I think you get it.



Display:


Founding Fathers (2.00 / 1)

Being this is a Democratic site, is there any ultimate proof what issue this amendment was framed around.

I believe that it was a law to protect the citizens from a tyrannical government by allowing them to have arms and form militias for that purpose.

It kills me that 99% of Americans simply don't even know what the second amendment is.
They dont realize it that I find patriotism and pride in that amendment.
They think it is soley about protecting private property.

Is my interpretation, one that I take great pride in accurate, is that what the constitution intended?


by DemsLandslide2008 on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 05:58:40 PM EST

Re: Founding Fathers (2.00 / 1)

The 2nd Amendment, as written and intended, was meant to prevent the Federal government from outlawing State militias, such that the State militias would serve as a check and balance to runaway Federal power.

That being said, even if we've moved toward all military power being focused at the Federal level (even tasking our various State National Guards to fight in foreign wars at the whim of the Administration), there still must be that check on runaway governmental power and abuse.

An armed citizenry, and the threat of potential revolution, provides that check.

However, just as every other right can be reasonably restricted when it comes in conflict with the rights of others--the freedom of speech can be restricted in cases of slander, fraud, and incitement to riot, for instance--this right can be reasonably restricted to ensure adequate safety for public at large.

The government may specify that weapons may not be carried in public without a license; or that there must be a waiting period and criminal background check before any weapon is sold; or that weapons sales must be tracked with gun make/model/serial number and photo ID; etc.

Gun control does not mean outlawing guns.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 08:24:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The USSC disagrees with you (none / 0)

"The question for Democrats (and all Americans) is:  If the Second Amendment protects the right to bear arms, (and/or guarantees military supplies to an 18th-century "well-regulated militia", that has since been replaced by the U.S. Armed Forces)  what arms do Americans feel the need to bear in order to protect themselves; and from whom, from what?"

Denny,

The USSC disagrees with you:

http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/heller-disc ussion-board-miller-colt-45s-and-natural -law/print/

"One aspect of the Heller majority opinion that has not yet attracted the attention of commentariat, but may be greatly important of the long run, is the presence of natural law.

Heller reaffirms a point made in the 1876 Cruikshank case. The right to arms (unlike, say, the right to grand jury indictment) is not a right which is granted by the Constitution. It is a pre-existing natural right which is recognized and protected by the Constitution.

Heller moves self-defense from the shadowy limbo of the Ninth Amendment into the bright uplands of the Second Amendment. It is now beyond dispute, in an American court, that self-defense is an inherent right, and that it is protected by the United States Constitution."

So, the majority decision, once and forall, said the ammendment DOES NOT apply only to the idea of the militia, but to the individual rights for protection.

That is what Obama is refering to.

Notice, Heller DID NOT outlaw 'reasonable gun regulations" but, it did set precident that largly agrees with what Obama has said.

And, I agree with the poster above. As with the other basic bill of rights acts, the founding fathers were trying to protect us against a totalitarian government.

So, while there IS need for sensible gun control, DC clearly overstepped it's bounds with the first ban, and was just asking to get clobbered in the court.

Interestingly enough, they have come back with a new idea:

http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/?s=heller+d ecision

And this one seems more likely to stand consitutional muster.


On Nov 4th, Barack Obama officially ends the Southern Strategy....
by WashStateBlue on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 06:10:50 PM EST

Re: The USSC disagrees with you (none / 0)

Yup.  SCOTUS' decision and my thoughts are at opposite spectrums.  Perhaps a new SCOTUS majority would think differently.


Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 06:19:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The USSC disagrees with you (none / 0)

Yes, it would take a change, as Kennedy pretty much telegraphed in advance his decision by his questioning in the oral arguments.

This decision was no surprise, in fact, many thought the majority might go FARTHER then they did.

You would need to do more then replace Ginsburg and Stevens, as Roberts, Alito, Thomas, Scalia and Kennedy are pretty much aligned on this.

There ARE rumors Scalia is in bad health, so, there is an outside chance a President Obama might have three bites at the apple.


On Nov 4th, Barack Obama officially ends the Southern Strategy....
by WashStateBlue on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 06:29:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I am curious... (none / 0)

how Jackson's famous quote is going to play into this as well as Scalia's majority opinion.  It strikes me that Heller could very well be a stillborn decision,  destined to be extremely restricted.

If the court somehow decides the constitution is a suicide pact with respect to the second amendment, I would be a wise guy and hope that a whole lot of 1st amendment jurisprudence gets revisited (including threats and "fire in a crowded theater").


Visiting the hopium dens proudly since 2007.
by AZphilosopher on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 06:47:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am curious... (none / 0)

Um, should I buy a gun?


Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 06:56:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am curious... (none / 0)

That's a very complex public policy decision.

I would say "Yes" if you are in some place that does not have good public services (Pinal county and unincorporated Maricopa county  in AZ).  I would say "no" if you are in a crowded city.

I believe that one can use the Jackson quote against the second amendment the same way it is used against other amendments.  If Scotus wants to say no  right is absolute, so be it.  If they want to say that Heller allows an unlimited  right to bear arms, then you have to tell me how the 2nd amendment is a right OVER and ABOVE any of the others (and especially the 1st since the framers thought this one was pretty important).

I am by no means pro gun but I think that the optimal outcome you can expect right now is a gutted Heller as long as low population states have a disproportionate voice in the electoral college.


Visiting the hopium dens proudly since 2007.
by AZphilosopher on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 07:08:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am curious... (none / 0)

Thank you for your very insightful contribution.  IMO, SCOTUS did not take into consideration high population states, yet considered to give "low population states (which) have a disproportionate voice in the electoral college"... proportionality.


Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 07:19:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am curious... (none / 0)

Thank you for the kind words.

When I was talking about low population states, I was talking about presidential politics .  I meant you are not going to see any anti-Heller appointees because every Republican presidential candidate gets a head start and has NRA backing.  So the court will not get switched anytime soon.


Visiting the hopium dens proudly since 2007.
by AZphilosopher on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 08:31:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ugh, natural law jurisprudence (none / 0)

aka emanating penumbras for conservatives.

Scalia did some bad "law office history" (as did Stevens in dissent) to get around the text and find that the 2nd grants an individual right.  


by JJE on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 07:53:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

the Right to Bear Arms (none / 0)

Nice diary, good analysis. reccd.


by Ignored and Disgusted on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 06:39:56 PM EST

Re: the Right to Bear Arms (none / 0)

Thanks.  Not a glomorous diary, but, IMO, a topic needing light.


Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 06:43:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the Right to Bear Arms (none / 0)

eh; "glamorous".


Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 06:44:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Can this ever be fixed? (none / 0)

Look I know America has a problem with violence, not a problem with guns (although they are the best tool for human on human violence).

I dont think America will lose its guns, but we need to look to our neibors in the north and ask ourselves "Why do they have as many guns and no murders"?

Also I hate to say it, but as a resident of Baltimore/DC I must say I ALWAYS supported the ban.

Baltimore is a SMALL city and with about 400 murders a year, and thousands of guns fired errantly your chance of catching a bullet is high.  Even in my suburban highschool there was almost on violent attack via guns every year.

DC, while also having a huge murder and STD epidemic (did I mention Bmore is syphilis capital for years now) but it is also our nations capital.
This might make a neocons blood boil, but I believe DC should have no civilian guns.  
There are a million reasons but here is one that is Democratic red meat:

Let DC be the example to the world that America could one day change.

Agree or not, handguns are illegal in almost all 1st and even some 2nd world countries (Mexico is a great example).

I dunno, it seems like Gun Control and violence are just part of a huge laundry list that Bush, Iraq, and defeating Bush's 3rd term have pushed to wayside.


by DemsLandslide2008 on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 06:44:19 PM EST

Re: Can this ever be fixed? (none / 0)

I grew up in Montgomery County; came to Chicago for school and stayed here (love it!).  
I can picture the diminishing violence we experience in this country with the limited access of fire arms.  (Speaking as an urban dweller of a large city and a former suburban dweller of a large city.)
Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 06:52:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can this ever be fixed? (none / 0)

Hi Dem---

But, you have to admit, this issue plays SOOOO different out in the SW and in places were we are JUST NOT making some strides in having Democrats come to the fore.

It would be tough for a John Testor to come out FOR a ban on guns ANYPLACE in the country and get re-elected.

And, for better or worse (and, I am quite pro the second amendement, and so yet screaming left on just about everything else, my Republic friends think I'm a commie) comparing the US to other countries just isn't applicable in gun control, because our history.

Yes, I understand, big city folks see this different then rural folks.

I grew up in a military family, in a hunting envirnoment, so firearms have always been in my background.

Yet, I would never own a hand-gun myself.

But, try to take away my shotgun, which I have had since I was 26, I would strongly object.

I DO have it for protection, but I live with my girlfriend, no kids, and I have a trigger lock on it, and the shells are hidden someplace that no one would think to look.

But, even here in WA state, and we are pretty blue, I think if you tried to do anykind of gun ban, you would drive folks away from the democratic party in droves.

Obama, again, and you might not agree with him on this, is walking a tightrope with not much room on either side to navigate.


On Nov 4th, Barack Obama officially ends the Southern Strategy....
by WashStateBlue on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 06:56:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can this ever be fixed? (none / 0)

Well, the DC ordinance didn't restrict shot guns.  Just hand guns.  And, let's face it, hand guns are disproportionately used in crimes.

If DC had tried to ban all guns, then I would better understand the arguments against it.  However, by allowing shot guns, rifles, etc., I think the DC ban was entirely reasonable.  Why shouldn't cities or states be able to ban the types of weapons that are disproportionately used for criminal purposes (e.g., assault weapons, handguns), while allowing use of weapons that are well suited for self-defense (e.g., shotguns)?


Jim Martin for Senate!
by markjay on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 07:56:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can this ever be fixed? (none / 0)

update: I have no personal experience with guns of any sort, but I just did a search online, and the consensus seems to be that a shotgun is actually far superior to a handgun for self-defense.  This bolsters the argument that a law banning handguns does not take away a family's right to protect itself, but could actually result in family's getting a more effect weapon for self-defense.


Jim Martin for Senate!
by markjay on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 08:03:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can this ever be fixed? (none / 0)

I would agree with that assement, a shotgun is a much better weapon for defense.  Nothing like the sound of the pump chambering a shell to freeze most folks into their steps. It's also a better self-defense weapon from the point of you don't have to be a marksmen NOR do you have to assure a kill. A leg full of buckshot will discourage most folks.  

The problem is, conceal and carry. Hard to tote a 12 gage pump around, women in particular that want a gun for nighttime safety want something in their purse.

This is a sticky one, I will admit.

It also is a terrible loser for us at the polls and that is disregarding HOW you feel about the issue.

Virtually 100% of the people who want gun control are voting for Dems anyway.

But, our new strength in places like the rural SW depends on the fact our guys like Testor and Sweitzer are NOT touting gun control.  It's a red flag issue for them.

My take is actually, crime is an issue of social class?

Take away endemic poverty, and drug addiction, and have some decent job programs...

Idealistic, I know. But, I'm not sure gun control will really stop gun violence anyway.


On Nov 4th, Barack Obama officially ends the Southern Strategy....
by WashStateBlue on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 08:23:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can this ever be fixed? (none / 0)

A shotgun is a much, much better weapon for defense if your in a semi-close quarter situation and there is no bystanders or any of your family close to your target.  If there are, then the shotgun has been rendered useless, unless your gonna shoot your wife, GF or sig other at the same time as the intruder/assailaint/criminal.  At this point a well aimed pistol is what's called for.

As for conceal and carry, well you can't C&C a shotgun.  It's considered and or falls under a rifle category in most states, except as you guessed it, Texas.  In Texas you can get a pistol gripped 12-g pump w/ a shoulder strap, and even take it into a bar (yes that's open and serving) and put it up on the bar.  There is no law against it.  You may get asked to leave, but not because your breaking a law. lol!

I know a lot of people who are staunch Dem's but would walk away if the Party would try to ban guns or become overally more restrictive than what the laws already are.

I would be shocked and concerned if there were any DEM candidates running for office right now that were anti-gun in Texas.  I would label their political career
DOA.


He that lives upon hope, will die fasting. -Ben Franklin
by TxDem08 on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 10:39:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Second Amendment and the Right to Bear Arm (2.00 / 2)

I can see how the tragedy in TN can raise the question of gun control in this country, but in actuality, gun control has nothing to do with this horrible incident. No gun control law under even the most extreme scenario would have kept this man from having a shotgun. England has some pretty tough gun control laws and even there many people own shotguns.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 07:29:35 PM EST

Re: The Second Amendment and the Right to Bear Arm (none / 0)

A very good point.

There are almost no restrictions that could pass anyplace on what is essentially a hunting weapon, like a shotgun.

If anything, today's tragedy is more a comment on 3 decades of demonizing people (gays, liberals,) by right wing sickos for poltical gain.

Clearly, Dick Cheney doesn't hate gay people, but he used that fear to keep his party in power and start a war for his oil buddies.

As a consequence, provacatuers like Rush and Hannity have turned Gay People into the AntiChrist, and sick f**Ks like that guy today act out what they have been drilled into thinking.


On Nov 4th, Barack Obama officially ends the Southern Strategy....
by WashStateBlue on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 07:40:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Second Amendment and the Right to Bear Arm (none / 0)

Thank you for bringing England into to the conversation.  I didn't want to overload my diary with statistics.  
If you look at the level of crime committed by individuals who utilize fire arms in the conduct of their crime, England is low on the scale while America is high on the scale, as demonstrated by the statistics.  The staistics show that the access to guns is the catalyst to crime.  

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mu r_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms

IMO, access, not conduct, is the issue SCOTUS needs to addres.


Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 08:13:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Second Amendment and the Right to Bear Arm (none / 0)

Whoa, be careful of using statistics like those to come up with the claim that access to guns is the catalyst for crime. All that is needed to refute that is the fact that all adult males in Switzerland are expected to undergo basic training and then serve in the reserve for 10 years. They are also required to keep an assault rifle, the SIG 550, in their home. The government subsidizes the purchase of ammunition at shooting ranges so they can practice. Switzerland has one of the lowest crime rates in Europe. How does that fit into your scheme?


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 08:34:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Second Amendment and the Right to Bear Arm (none / 0)

Um, maybe we all need to move to Switzerland?  (Snark!)


Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 08:41:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Second Amendment and the Right to Bear Arm (none / 0)

So you accept that the argument is flawed?


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 08:43:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Second Amendment and the Right to Bear Arm (none / 0)

Hardly.  Are you actually going to argue that the level of armed violence we experience in this country is not a byproduct of access rather than conduct.  Are you actually going to compare a 1st world country's crime to that of a 3rd world country's crime?  If so, what does that say about our (1st world) country?


Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 08:54:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Second Amendment and the Right to Bear Arm (none / 0)

Are you actually going to argue that the level of armed violence we experience in this country is not a byproduct of access rather than conduct.
Of course I am. We have a culture of violence in this country that contributes to the level of actual violence we experience.

Are you seriously calling Switzerland a 3rd world country? LOL.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 08:58:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Second Amendment and the Right to Bear Arm (none / 0)

Perhaps I should have been more clear for you, even after posting statistics illustrating crime by fire arems throughout the world.  Obviously, Switzerland is not a 3rd world country.  But the fact that the statistics showing America's crime by fire arms is similar to those of 3rd world counties should give you pause, if not heart burn.


Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 09:05:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Second Amendment and the Right to Bear Arm (none / 0)

Now we are getting somewhere. The fact that statistics show gun crimes in America are similar to those in 3rd world countries could be taken to suggest that the culture is in many ways closer to 3rd world countries than to 1st world ones. Our wealth gap is compares favorably with a lot of 2nd world countries. Our health care is about to drop out of 1st world ranking. Our death penalty and prison population are hardly 1st world rankings.

My point is that attitudes towards violence have as much to do with the levels of violence in this country as access to firearms. Perhaps more.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 09:11:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Second Amendment and the Right to Bear Arm (none / 0)

I think we're saying the same thing...but differenlty.  I'm saying access/conduct and I think you're saying access/conduct.  


Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 09:25:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Second Amendment and the Right to Bear Arm (none / 0)

Maybe we are now. I took your stance as being access = conduct/actions and mine as being conduct+access = actions


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 09:28:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Second Amendment (2.00 / 1)

You are so exactly right on.  When the pro-gun people (and the media does this too) refer to the second amendment, they always just say it's "the right to bear arms."  They always leave out the critical clause of the amendment, upon which the "right to bear arms" depends: "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state. .."

Also note:  the word "well-regulated" is there.  They always just conveniently leave that out too. The second amendment is talking about a collective need for the state/nation to defend itself from enemies.  It is decidedly NOT speaking about a right to carry guns, hidden or otherwise, in our public streets, in our supermarkets or into our classrooms.


by moevaughn on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 09:01:47 PM EST

Good topic. (none / 0)

Fixing poverty is the #1 way to reduce gun violence in this country.  

But 1A is understanding a cultural problem.  We worship machismo and violence.  And while the vast majority of us may be able to see those things in pop culture without emulating them, in a country of 300 million, you're going to have those that are different.


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 09:08:55 PM EST

Re: I think your wrong. Don't trample my 2nd amndt (none / 0)

I feel/want and do own the following:

AR-15 semi-auto
AK-47 assault rifle
M-14
Glock 19 (just sold for the Glock 23)
M1911A1
Taurus 100B
S&W .380
Barrett REC7
Benelli M4 shotgun

and of course I also load and press my own ammo.

2nd ammendment...well I believe in it, and think the SCOTUS ruling was right but didn't go far enough.

Guns don't kill people.  People kill people.  And if there had been another individual who had been armed there, they could have killed that wack job or at the least chased him off before he killed anyone.


He that lives upon hope, will die fasting. -Ben Franklin
by TxDem08 on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 10:26:59 PM EST

Re: I think your wrong. Don't trample my 2nd amndt (none / 0)

Well, there are plenty of Americans who agree with your sentiments.


Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 10:36:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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