Distressed, Depressed & Overwhelmed

I just read through the latest diary about  me, my motives, and the issue about Obama.

I did not intend for this to become the hullabaloo that it has, and  contrary to wanting  the attention--I hate it!

My blogmates on CFO deserve, I think a huge round of applause and a thank you from everyone on mydd. No one on CFO approved of the diary I wrote, but many of them believed I should be able to say it without being flamed and crucified. So I want to say to them:

I didn't exactly drag you into this, but I do appreciate your defending my right to say something so terribly unpopular and clearly hateful to so many.

While we are on acknowledgements I would like to thank chitown denny and the blogger who has penguin in his name. I'm sorry I can't remember your name better--and I don't have the heart to look it up right now. You know who you are.

Here is what I have been thinking over the course of this entire mess which began last Sunday and has continued now, unabated, for six days.

When I was small, before I could talk, I was badly hurt by someone in my family. Part of the injury  that I sustained was that I could not tell anyone what happened. After I could speak, no one believed me. As a result of not being believed,  the injustice and mistreatment continued unchecked. And as it did,  year by year so did my passion to speak my truth--as I see and I experience  it. By the seventh grade I  was telling anyone who asked I was going to be a news reporter.

Sometimes, this tendency is helpful as when I named a behavior that had existed, but had never been named, and then wrote the first book about sexual harassment of women on the job. And this commitment has helped many in all sorts of ways over the years.

Sometimes, this tendency is not helpful, can be seen as inappropriate and unnecessary, if not unwanted. And at times is perceived as downright hateful.

I have come to terms with this part of my character. I will do it, and I will take my lumps if that is what expressing `how I see things' requires me to do.

During the primary wars here I said some things  which sent people over a cliff. And I was accused then of echoing right wing talking points and like that. What I said then, and what I say now, is that I am a former news reporter with the Associated Press and sources come from all sorts of places. Some are true and some are not. The days when we could safely assume that some sources were honorable and above board while others were Always biased and inaccurate are gone. For example, I watched Fox news during the primary because it was often the only place I could catch any pro-Hillary slant. I do not watch them now because they are essentially a Republican mouthpiece with a pro-McCain slant.

As for the issue of right wing sources, etc. To many on the left, almost any publication in Israel is suspect and ips facto right wing. I once published one line here that used some Israeli source--but only after it had been used by the Los Angeles Times. No one on here cared that the LA times had published what I was now saying. I was smeared as someone who quotes right wing whack jobs.

I did write for Savage Politics. I have not spoken to anyone there since  they published an avalanche of pure hate about me when I declared my  support the nominee. It was the same at Hill44. And I was  excommunicated by Alegre from Hillary'svoice with no explanation. I have not gone back to any of those sites and I have only heard from others how hateful they became about me.  Altho a few people do write me now and then and we discuss as best we can across this great divide that separates us now.

CFO began as a place for people who supported Hillary and who now support the nominee.  We wanted to commiserate and support one another. We were a truly small and rather isolated group. I think adleft and psychodrew are to be commended for their creating this haven and attracting a wonderful group of bloggers.

And then there is me. And here is my truth about Obama. I am skeptical. But because I will vote for him I work at liking him better. But ever since the primary ended he has been metamorphosing into something different than who he appeared to be in the primary. And so I feel as if I keep playing catchup.

For the record:

I do not think he is a secret Muslim. [although I wouldn't care if he was]
I have no issue with his middle name, and in fact, I like it.
I do think his campaign used the race card against the Clintons and I believe he lied about his relative going to Auschwitz.. [This was another one that brought down the house here and Canadian Gal was among the chief scoffers.]
I am beginning to like his wife and I think his kids are smart and spunky.
I think he has led an extraordinary life and I  like his thoughtful approach to issues.
I think his idea of a team of rivals is encouraging--as long as he is decisive.
I like his stand on off-shore drilling.
I wish he would speak out more forcefully about "women's issues," but I do not think he will give up a woman's right to choose. And I trust he will appoint justices to the Supreme Court who will ensure this is the case.
I think he will use Al Gore and we might actually get somewhere on the environment.

I could go on, but you get the drift.

Was I thrilled with his trip overseas. The answer is no. I thought it was a mistake. I think we are in an economic meltdown and people here at home are hurting, and something about that trip was not helpful to his image here. I especially do not think it helped his foreign policy credentials in the least. [My take on this may be influenced by the fact my Mom's savings were at risk when Indymac failed]

And then we come to prayer-gate. I am not going to rehash it all. Many, many here cannot understand that someone who supports him believes the prayer was deliberately leaked. After reading and seeing all there is to see about it I  would have to say that my honest opinion is: I don't know. And at this point I do think it is unclear what actually happened. But I  have a very jaundiced view of the Obama campaign machine. Perhaps this comes with having been on the other side in the primary, I don't know.

Does that make me a bad democrat? Does that make me someone who cannot support the nominee? Does that mean I am a troll or a right wing plant, or a Republican or engaging in swift boating our nominee?  

Of course not.

I am just speaking my truth the best I can, calling things as I see them, willing to listen and debate.

However, I have learned one important lesson through all of this. Maybe this is not the best time to dwell on our nominee's shortcomings. Obama does need to get elected. And I  am 100 percent on board with that necessity. So if this discussion about the leaking of the  prayer, which I assumed to be a discussion  among ourselves--all people who support him-- was not helpful--I apologize.

My 2 cents.



Display:


Re: Distressed, Depressed & Overwhelmed (2.00 / 3)

I am fighting back the tears as I read this.  Overwhelmed at the firestorm.  My apologies.  To YOU!


Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 02:37:42 PM EST

Lin, it's nice to have 100% of YOU here... (2.00 / 5)

...from the heart.

This is the quintessential, mislabelled "PUMA"...one who's now voting for Barack Obama.

Bloggers on this site should NOT be abusing their blogging privileges by abusing OTHER OBAMA SUPPORTERS...of which Lin is now one!

Got it? Good!

Forgiveness is a beautiful and healthy thing...remember that before you disrupt this comments thread!!!

We are all in this together.


by bobswern on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 02:44:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lin, it's nice to have 100% of YOU here... (2.00 / 6)

Not buying it for a second.

We have all heard this before.

Your personal life is never an exuse.

If you can't control what you type and click the Post button that is your problem.

Alot of us have been traumatized, and we dont use it as a last ditch card to get out of something.

Linfar can ofcourse continue posting whatever she wants, but to expect me to instantly forgive and forget when she has done this over an over is absurd.

Keep posting Lin, stand up and speak your mind, just cut the excuses for your content.
It's weak, unbecoming and screams the "Democratic Weakness" I always accuse our party of.

It's the same weakness that stops our leadership from throwing lieberman under a real bus.
There is just someone who says "Oh he was a good guy, he'l come back"

Man, I hate the GOP, but got to respect their dicipline.   They would never put up with any of this, and I guarntee that if we continue with our pudding soft spines the GOP will take the WH and congress back by 2016.


by DemsLandslide2008 on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:22:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

We are bloggers (2.00 / 1)

I am quite certain Linfar is going to piss me off again, but for the time being she has offered an apology for the latest go-round.  If you were expecting more from her or anyone else then you were expecting too much.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:34:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

YOU can't have any PROBLEMS! (2.00 / 1)

no, sir, of course there are no fucking problems. Of course I'm not fucking using profanity in every fucking line, in totally inappropriate ways.

Seriously, maybe linfar shouldn't have posted such stuff... and it's okay that other people got enraged.

Hug and make up.


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:40:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lin, it's nice to have 100% of YOU here... (none / 0)

this is weird, why did you feel the need to share this?  Who are you to forgive anyone, what does that even mean?  Our leadership gets paid to do a job, and that's to represent us.  We get to bash them - they work for us. We get to blog about our candidates and it's more helpful to them when we're critical, because they can see what we're thinking. Candidates used to have to pay for this information, get interviewers out there, and now they can just go online and read what people are thinking, it's a service.  

IF you are working with him and only yes him, that's bad enough.  

Me, I just want him to  win, and I think some of this stuff isn't helping, and that he needs to get more substantive and that his plans and solutions may win him votes when his personality doesn't.  

I think the country wants competence. The country wants to know what either of them would do, how and with whom.  Then the choice will be up to the voters, which one they think best represents what they'd like to see happen.

What you might like to know is that he isn't going to win in a landslide, but that you aren't helping him win, by putting yourself forward as a judge and punisher on his so-called behalf. Some of his closest friends have turned into his worst nightmares, and that's hardly his fault.  He didn't cause you either, but you might like to think, how to win a landslide?  Hey, why not try being polite and listening to what other people have to say?  Or not, suit yourself.  


what a relief
by anna shane on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 04:14:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lin, it's nice to have 100% of YOU here... (2.00 / 1)

Again with the focus on Obama.

It's not the point, I just won't forgive what I see as callous smears against Obama.

And yes, I do think Obama will win a landslide.

Regan did it in 49 states.

Now technicially will it happen, prob not, but I am freaking American, optimism and goals are what drive us.

Do you think Regan won 49 states by saying "theres no way I could win 49, I would be lucky if I won"

Me attacking Linfar has nothing to do with protecting Obama, it is more with protecting this site.

NoQuarter and LarryJohnson are listed on FightTheSmears.com as the #1 smear for the whitey tape.

I would hate to see an entry saying "Linfar of MyDD and CFO .........."

I can't be complicit with that kind of action.


by DemsLandslide2008 on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 04:20:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lin, it's nice to have 100% of YOU here... (none / 0)

which makes of you what? the enforcer? the moral authority? the unforgiver?  Pardon me, but anyone who puts themselves forth as a moral arbiter makes of themselves a candidate for ridicule.  Ideas are to be discussed, you may agree or disagree, but other than that, you're just puffing yourself up.  what you're saying is you don't agree that Linfar's diary was helpful. She thinks it was, and she's hurt that she gets smeared for giving an opinion that, if listened to, might help Barack win more votes. Doesn't mean she's correct, but no one knows ahead of time, and constructive feedback on how things make others feel about the candidate are important, and I think useful.  


what a relief
by anna shane on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 05:27:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lin, it's nice to have 100% of YOU here... (none / 0)

That was nicely said Anna, and I appreciate it. I did think there would be a discussion. lol


by linfar on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 06:30:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lin, it's nice to have 100% of YOU here... (2.00 / 1)

Anna, its not that I think she is dead wrong.

Its that I DONT BELIEVE a word coming out of her keyboard.

My sentiment is repeated by many, even those that forgive her.

In my life I have learned (in the real world) that appologies are bullshit.

Some can feel regret, but in the end adults are responsible for their decisions.

Linfar wrote that diary and hit the submit button.

This is nothing close to when a politician makes a gaffe live and apologizes.

Her smears were deliberate and her response very tactical.  Having gone to school in America, Linfar should know the value of proofreading.

Look, I dont care what people write here, what I cant stand are the mind games.

And I have seen Linfar repeat it over and over and over again.

She can post here, I wont attack her, but when she starts lying and attacking people like Reaper who are great contributors here, we have a problem.

Whatever, you guys want to play these games, go nuts.

We are just wasting valuable time of someone who just desperately wants attention.


by DemsLandslide2008 on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 06:39:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lin, it's nice to have 100% of YOU here... (none / 0)

you're funny. Why do you deserve an apology? That is soooo strange.  


what a relief
by anna shane on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 06:54:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Distressed, Depressed (2.00 / 1)

Hi Denny, you know that little girl who just wanted to have someone listen, luvs yu!!


by linfar on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:37:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

you sound like you need a hug (2.00 / 1)

have mine
(((((((((((((((((linfar))))))))))))))))) ))

when you're feeling better, give a nice apology to the folks who cared enough about you to have a nice spar. ;-)

The first rule of Fight Club: There is no Fight Club.

Soon enough this will all be water under the bridge.

I know someone who was part of some of the -real- dirty dealings during the primary season. What he has to say might surprise you. (err, and the fact that he wasn't on either campaign's staff. teehee).


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:43:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you sound like you need a hug (none / 0)

hugs are nice, hugs are good. i'll always take one. yu certainly know how to tantalize one with the insider story stuff.


by linfar on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 06:35:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There's a lot of victim in this post (1.85 / 7)

The personal background was nice but irrelevant. The dig about how you don't trust the Obama campaign because you were on "the other side" is just an excuse to promote completely unsubstantiated rumors and your own personal opinion as fact. There's a difference between "your truth" and THE truth. That, linfar, is the difference between journalism and commentary. You do fine at the latter, but you're not so hot at the former.


by upstate girl on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 02:41:33 PM EST

Re: There's a lot of victim in this post (2.00 / 3)

I disagree that personal context is irrelevant, particularly in this situation.  I also think that it's a bad idea to blindly trust everything about Obama and his campaign, and I supported him throughout the primaries.  The fact is that he is a politician running a political campaign.  Saints do not get elected.  FDR was slammed by an opponent for being a "chameleon on plaid" and Lincoln was labeled "a first rate second rate man" by none other than Frederick Douglas.  My point is that our nominee and his campaign are engaged in an arena that necessitates occasional ethical grayness, and that in such a situation they may cross lines in ways that I am not prepared to accept.  Speaking out when that happens seems appropriate, if done appropriately.  One of the things I admire about Obama is that, despite all the smears of his messianic pretensions and celebrity status, he does not want sheep-like followers.  I trust him in general.  But I don't think it's necessary to apply that trust in every case or to take everything his campaign says at face value.


The future is unwritten
by Strummerson on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 02:53:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

do continue (2.00 / 5)

If her personal background isn't irrelevant in this situation, please explain how. As far as I can tell from reading the diary its a cross between "this is my excuse" and a livejournal essay.

There's also a massive difference between not blindly believing everything you hear from a politician, and purposefully perpetuating falsehoods even after the proof that they're false has been submitted. Please don't attempt to juxtapose the two.


by upstate girl on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 02:57:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: do continue (none / 0)

Personal background is relevant her because:

1. Blog diaries and comments are, or at least can be, opinion pieces, not attempts at 'objective reporting.'  As such, adding context to explain how or why one sees something or responds to others is an act of honesty and responsibility.  I stayed away from this firestorm, except to point out that if Obama's campaign had leaked the prayer, then the accusation that he orchestrated its theft was rendered even more ridiculous.  If he did not, it was still ridiculous.  I also responded to someone who tried to argue that not expecting it to be stolen was naive to point out that this theft has no precedent.  But in general the tone seemed unproductive and it seemed to be keeping an issue alive that should have been left to die.  Nowhere did I lend credence to any of the accusations against his campaign.  In the aftermath, I read the personal context in this attempt to explain one side of it illuminating as to how and why the tone escalated and how the position (that I never supported) was formed.

2. My sympathy with feminist theory and praxis leads me to recognize the necessary connection between the personal and the political.


The future is unwritten
by Strummerson on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:44:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

in a nutshell, then (2.00 / 2)

its still the same thing - linfar had issues which is why she wouldn't let the issue drop when she was proven to be wrong, plus she still gets the opportunity to present it as "her truth" which is basically her opinion backed up by whatever she wants. No dice.


by upstate girl on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:53:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: in a nutshell, then (2.00 / 2)

Nope.  We have different nutshells.  One of the many ways our shells seem to differ is that you are still caught up in the back and forth about linfar.  I am responding to a difference in principle between the two of us.  I do not find personal perspective irrelevant, nor do I believe in the imperative to always attempt 'objectivity,' nor do I think it often possible, nor do think it's necessarily desirable.  We all 'have issues.'  And our 'issues' are often and perhaps always relevant.

linfar presented her views of a situation.  I disagreed with her on both content and tactics.  I also thought the way others attempted to keep it going in inflammatory ways was inappropriate.  But dismissing her attempt to explain how things unfolded from her side is also, on principle, inappropriate.


The future is unwritten
by Strummerson on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 04:00:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Two nutshells (2.00 / 1)

I think both you AND Upstate girl are right.

With many diarists and commentators, it is the logic of their posts, the waft and weave of their thought and reasoning (or lack of it) which wins them Kudos or trolls. They are classic debaters, and their arguments can be refuted.

There are other diarists, and Linfar is a classic example, to whom personal stories, background, incident, memories and family histories are all important.

But how do you refute, argue with, or critique this second category without seeming to be making a personal attack? That is the accusation of many of Linfar's supporters: they don't agree with her arguments, but they think the attacks on her are personal.

It's very hard not to make a personal attack when Linfar turns the personal into the political. I will write to her separately about this.

But it's not an easy dilemma to overcome, and the identity politics that underly it are deeply troublesome


by duende on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 05:02:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Two nutshells (none / 0)

Very well put.  

I'd only add that even 'thoughts and reasoning' are formed in a context that is personal.  Sometimes refusing to recognize this is part of the problem.  The reason I am sympathetic to Linfar in this diary, is that she is presenting personal context to explain how a series of exchanges transpired from her perspective.  There may not be an apology or concession here, but there is a clear - and I think good faith - attempt to repair a situation.  Offering her personal experience does not then bolster an argument or play on sympathy, but represents an attempt to achieve understanding.  In my reading, of course.  From this perspective, this diary seems an attempt to take some responsibility and communicate a desire to move on in a more positive way.  And it will inform how I read and respond to her in the future.  

But this does not address the complexity of the interweaving of personal and political you raise here.  I think of it as a challenge indeed.  Ethical questions are challenging in general.  One of the best things that can come out of it is the recognition of the way one's personal context informs both one's articulation of a position and one's reception of the position put forth by another.  This can be instructive and empowering.    It is, I think, the understanding of one's own personal context and attention to the existence of the unknown personal context of one's interlocutor that can enhance debate.  Acknowledging the personal does not need to be a defense.  It can also function as an opening.


The future is unwritten
by Strummerson on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 05:19:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Two nutshells (none / 0)

Yes, but a bad combination of the personal and the political can be disastrous, as I try to gently stress to Linfar further downthread.

My concern at this point is not for Obama and his ethics, which have been protected. Nor for MYDD and political blogging, which will also survive. My concern now is for Linfar and the impossible position she is putting herself in.


by duende on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 05:27:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Two nutshells (none / 0)

I'm going to wade into the waters of this murky pond.  Personal background is subtext.  The context was debatable, if not justifiable.  That shouldn't be too hard to comprehend.  If so, ask me!


Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 05:41:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hugs and brickbats (2.00 / 1)

You're misunderstanding me. You and others think that when I and others attack Linfar's ideas or posts, we're attacking her. That's because she mixes her personal story into most her diaries, giving us one choice - hugs or brickbats.

I'm sure if I met Linfar I'd want to give her a hug. But I think her journalism is terrible.


by duende on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 06:45:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hugs and brickbats (none / 0)

In the short period of time I've been on this site (and the blogosphere), I will tell you that I really enjoy your contribution, even though, more often than not, we have been on oppostie sides of opinion.  
I will also tell you, as someone who looks forward to additional discourse with you, you were over the top!  Doubt me?  Go back and read your comments from the last 48 hours.
Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 07:28:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks for a reasoned reply. (none / 0)

Over the top is a question of context too. I have to tell you that I felt the Wailing Wall allegation was more painful than anything I read here during the primary season, and more potentially damaging if it got traction at this stage of the electoral cycle. I've written to Linfar below in an attempt to explain my sensibilities, and those of many other Obama supporters. I'll share the link here, so that you can at least get a gist of them without having to go through the whole diary.

I feel quite passionate about this. I don't expect you to agree. But thanks for engaging.


by duende on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 08:06:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

haven't been following this so well.. (2.00 / 1)

has she been trying to say that she still believes in stupid shit, about this particular issue? I don't think so.

She's trying to get her voice heard, and really sounds like she needs a hug. Some things you don't talk about lightly, and even after they get to be lighter on your heart, you still could use some affirmation.


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:45:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm sure she does need a hug. (2.00 / 1)

But needing a hug doesn't provide evidence, or an excuse, for perpetuating falsehoods and rumors based on nothing but suspecting them to be true.


by upstate girl on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:54:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

err... at least she had a video tape (2.00 / 1)

I have personal interviews that i regularly cite in regards to Richardson's zipper problem. I don't expect anyone to believe lil' ol' me, but I do get my say in.

I think the problem lies mostly in how hostile she was to other people -- which plays into a suspicious, hostile mindset.


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:56:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: err... at least she had a video tape (2.00 / 1)

The tape compounded the sin.

Look, I watched the tape.  I saw someone in a suit who wasn't Obama put a prayer in a wall.  I then saw some giggling, Hebrew speaking young guy rifle through the prayers in that crack and grab one.  I then saw that young guy walking towards Obama's entourage, and be held back by a Secret Service agent, which I took as a pretty definitive sign the kid was NOT part of the entourage as alleged.

I understand differences of opinion.  I don't understand how a person with a journalistic background can watch that video and make the allegations that linfar did.  I have tried, but I simply find no legitimate merit to her claim, and the fact that she refused to back off it must discredit her to me if I'm to claim that I can be governed by rational observation.

The problem is that she made an extraordinary claim, one that, if true, would reflect very, very negatively on our nominee.  She then provided the supposed evidence that would substantiate her claim, and instead it undermined it.  Given those facts, how are we supposed to react?  Given her past, very vocal opposition to Obama, how are we supposed to interpret her present (unsubstantiated) accusations?

I'm not happy it became a flame war, but what exactly was supposed to happen in this situation?


by Jay R on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 06:05:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There's a lot of victim in this post (2.00 / 1)

nicely said strummerson.


by linfar on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 02:57:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

linfar, (none / 0)

you sound like you really overreacted here, just judging by what other people are saying. I think you need some help, and that some counseling might be good for you, both mentally and physically.

Unasked for advice is unlikely to be consulted, let alone utilized, but I write this in the faith that you'll at least read it.


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:58:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wow. (2.00 / 4)

I'm speechless.

Thanks, Lin!


Another Clintonista against John McCain
by psychodrew on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 02:43:50 PM EST

recced for having the guts (2.00 / 4)

to post this.

My heart goes out to the child you were. My daughter, tonight, will get the hug you deserve.


by Neef on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 02:44:22 PM EST

Re: recced for having the guts (none / 0)

that's great neef. Hugs are good :)


by linfar on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:37:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh brother: (2.00 / 6)

As for the issue of right wing sources, etc. To many on the left, almost any publication in Israel is suspect and ips facto right wing.

No, the problem is that we're smart enough to know the difference between Haaretz and rightwing sites like Israel Insider, which is not a legit news source but rather a rightwing tabloid site that is virulently rightwing and anti-Obama.


by Geekesque on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 02:44:25 PM EST

Get over it! (2.00 / 3)

Forgiveness is a beautiful thing.


by bobswern on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 02:47:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Get over it! (1.20 / 5)

We forgave her the last ten times,

your falling for this nonsense again.

PLEASE

Ok, let me punch you in the face, then tell you how i got the shit beat out of me in elementary school, and then you forgive me for it.
Dont forget tommorow I will punch you again, but you will forgive me because it's the dem thing to do right?

Linfar is a troll, this diary proves her trollery.

She could have just appologized, and stopped smearing Obama, but no,  she has to have an outpouring of sympathy.


by DemsLandslide2008 on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:25:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh brother: (1.83 / 6)

She apologized.  That is much more than I expected.  It would be best if we could all move on.  I am sure this won't be the last time MyDD has a weeks long flamewar.  We should prepare for those and not continue to fight this one.    


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 02:53:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh brother: (2.00 / 2)

The problem I have is that Linfar's unwillingness to admit that Obama's camp DID NOT RELEASE THE PRAYER is as bad as the ridiculous Fingergate that Alegre trumpeted.  

It has been refuted by the student himself and there is a video of the taking of the prayer.  What else will it take?  I appreciate Linfar's apology, and I am not angry that she refuses to be logical on this issue.  I just don't understand it.  

""I'm sorry. It was a kind of prank," Alef said, his hands shaking as he fingered the tightly wadded-up sheet of King David Hotel letterhead. "I hope he wasn't hurt. We all believe he will take the presidency.""

http://www.jewishjournal.com/politics/ar ticle/obamas_note_at_the_western_wall_as ks_for_gods_guidance_200807251/

Sadly, for some people, no amount of evidence will ever be enough.


by ProgressiveDL on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 04:20:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

denny's at least wised up (2.00 / 1)

... he honestly can give good, substantial comments once in a while.

I don't think that she believes that obama did that, and that she's suspicious of what a campaign might do.


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 04:40:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: denny's at least wised up (2.00 / 1)

"once in a while"?   :)
we all have our days.   :)
Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 04:57:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

one thing I like about you Denny (none / 0)

... you respond! It's nice having a chat, and not just writing on the bathroom wall


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 06:33:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh brother: (2.00 / 2)

I doubt much will satisfy you, whoever you are. you seem to have an axe to grind,  and have been little interested in doing anything except pouring oil into fiery waters. go in peace.


by linfar on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 02:59:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh brother: (2.00 / 1)

Linfar, you have done that all year.

Smearing Obama every chance you get.

Smearing Tim Russert before he was even buried.

At the end of the day, you put that (R) on your shoulder and dove into shit, what makes you think it all washed away?


by DemsLandslide2008 on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:27:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh brother: (none / 0)

DLS--I do not believe any progressive democrat would really be upset about someone recalling all the myriad ways tim Russert led us into the Iraq war.


by linfar on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:39:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh brother: (1.66 / 3)

yes but you smeared him

And MANY members said the same thing in reaction to your post as they do with your new smear on Obama.

They said "Linfar we love you, but this is disgusting"   "Linfar, you wrote a great post on wolves yesterday, why are your writing this terrible stuff, let him be buried in peace"

but no, you kept doing the evasive troll debate style like you are attempting now.

George Bush took us to war, and the entire media was complicit.

Funny you are too afraid to take on the mean and scary republicans but have no fear for a man that died way way too young.

But hey you are a troll, and trollers have no morals or ethics or dignity.

All your stories about your family and your mental state are also suspect, as displayed by your callousness.

Keep trolling Linfar, you are getting better and better at it.  

seriously, kudos!


by DemsLandslide2008 on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:57:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Distressed, Depressed & Overwhelmed (2.00 / 3)

I should clarify that C4O was actually atdleft's idea.  He just brought me along.


Another Clintonista against John McCain
by psychodrew on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 02:45:17 PM EST

Oh, jeez! (2.00 / 2)

Sure, I might have been the first one to think it up. But without all of you, I'd just be one silly kid making myself look stupid. Thanks for helping me make this happen... You & linfar & CG & sricki & Dizzy & Beltway Dem & everyone else who's a part of our team. :-)


No way, no how, no McCain! :-)
by atdleft on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 02:59:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Distressed, Depressed & (2.00 / 1)

and me too :)


by linfar on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:00:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Meh. (none / 0)

Fool me once....

Let's see where this goes in the future..


If you are not voting Obama, please let me know so I can replace your sorry ass with another new voter.
by Darknesse on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 02:46:19 PM EST

No dice (2.00 / 14)

You've completely ignored every single thing anyone has written to debunk your claims.  You continue to ignore that evidence.

Your life story is fascinating but utterly irrelevant to whether or not what you wrote was true.  Linfar, I don't enjoy writing any of this, but ultimately I do not consider you to be posting here in good faith if you refuse to even acknowledge what other people write and continue to repeat the same accusations.

Do you think that we are all wrong and that you are correct that Obama both leaked his prayer AND stole it?

I am not saying you are a bad person.  I am not trying to prevent you from speaking.  I am responding.  I am as free to do that as you are free to write.

Why even bother?  Why treat this like a one-way exchange?  You post "evidence" and we must receive it.  We post evidence and you're nowhere to be found.

Be well, Linfar, and try to do a better job.  This isn't about you or your feelings.  It's about the quality of your work.  It's been lacking of late, and that's being charitable.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 02:46:35 PM EST

Re: No dice (2.00 / 1)

Oh, give it a rest!


Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 02:51:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He's absolutely correct (2.00 / 4)

I have a real problem when someone insists on perpetuating rumors and falsehoods because its "their truth" and then gives a sob story about their past when they're rightfully called out on it.

Hate to break it to you, but a lot of people have had bad, bad, bad experiences in their childhoods. I feel for them. But its not an excuse. And its offensive to people that have also had bad childhoods when people use it as an excuse for their totally unrelated bad habits as an adult.


by upstate girl on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 02:55:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He's absolutely correct (none / 0)

I agree with what you say.  I will also add that there is subtext and context.  The subtext is her personal history, the context is, in this case, the paryer at the Wailing Wall.  There is/has been sufficient evidence (google it, if you doubt me) to call into question the facts about the leak.  As such, I say, lets move on.


Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:01:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He's absolutely correct (2.00 / 3)

Chitown, please, let's not drag this out again.


by JBGolden on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:02:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He's absolutely correct (none / 0)

Excuse me?  
"As such, I say, lets move on."
Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:16:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He's absolutely correct (none / 0)

No.  Let me paraphrase you:  "I'm right, you're wrong.  Now let's stop talking about it."


by ProgressiveDL on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 04:23:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He's absolutely correct (2.00 / 5)

You are one of the two people who have insisted that there is anything open to debate.

There aren't enough facts to support your position.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:03:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Subtext only applies (2.00 / 4)

...when the context is relevant. There's no subtext to linfar perpetuating falsehoods after being repeatedly presented evidence about it - unless you're counting her story about her childhood as being context for why she feels it necessary to put forth her opinions under the banner of "truth", be it hers or otherwise.

I feel for linfar as much as I feel for anyone with a crappy childhood. But its not relevant to the situation whatsoever, unless there's another story she's telling us about a presidential campaign stealing her prayer from The Wailing Wall as a child.


by upstate girl on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:06:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Subtext only applies (none / 0)

I, too, saw the evidence.  I will only state that the facts are clearer today than the day before.  And I will only state this so as not to continue the finger pointing.


Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:14:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Subtext only applies (2.00 / 1)

Clear is a relative term, apparently. And your graciousness at declining to accuse the worst intentions based on the flimsiest of evidence is noted.


by upstate girl on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:17:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Subtext only applies (none / 0)

UGH!  The 'bot police.  I mean, really!


Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:21:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What? (none / 0)

That doesn't even make sense.


by upstate girl on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:55:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What? (2.00 / 2)

I think the line you are shooting for is ...

That is not even wrong !

The phrase was coined by the early quantum physicist Wolfgang Pauli, who was known for his colorful objections to incorrect or sloppy thinking.[1] Peierls (1960) writes of Pauli, "... a friend showed him the paper of a young physicist which he suspected was not of great value but on which he wanted Pauli's views. Pauli remarked sadly 'That's not right. It's not even wrong'".[2] In science and philosophy it is known as the principle of falsifiability.


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 05:30:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No dice (2.00 / 5)

I do want to point out that I appreciate your apology, Linfar.  I should have said that in the above comment, and I'm sorry for the lack.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 02:55:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No dice (2.00 / 1)

REaper0Bot)--You have had a truly starring role in this fiasco, whoever yu are. And I do not believe you are in the least bit sincere. You "played nice" in order to get information to attack and villify. You have had one goal--to inflame this board and crucify your appointed villain. I think people here will see what you are about and you won't be here much longer.


by linfar on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:02:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No dice (2.00 / 5)

Very kind of you.  I'm glad you're able to read my mind in addition to ignore most everything substantive we've had to say.  "You have one goal - ton inflame (sic) this board and crucify your appointed villain."  Impressive, Linfar.  I've tried to be classy.

And if I may?  Respectfully, right back at ya!


by Reaper0Bot0 on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:05:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Your victim complex is getting overwhelming. (2.00 / 8)

I do say this with all sincerity linfar - for someone supposedly that worked as a journalist, your penchant for hyperbole and overreactionary emotionalism is drowning out whatever burning flame for actual journalism you once had.


by upstate girl on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:10:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Are you kidding? (2.00 / 1)

He's got diaries up on the rec list by the handful.  Reaperbot, the new Alegre, only without the B.S.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:18:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you kidding? (2.00 / 1)

Hmmm.  Hillbot vs. Obamabot.  Thank you for pointing out the realities of many (former and present) on this site.


Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:48:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you kidding? (2.00 / 1)

Denny, I'm here to help.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:52:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you kidding? (none / 0)

Thank you for pointing this out.  Sorry if I'm having a hard time of discerning this.


Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 04:02:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you kidding? (2.00 / 3)

Just kidding, Denny, I'm here to bust chops, like everyone else on this blog.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 04:10:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you kidding? (2.00 / 1)

Dude, you're making me crazy....


Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 04:25:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No dice (2.00 / 7)

And I do not believe you are in the least bit sincere.

See, this is why I am hesitant to take your apology at face value (though, I do indeed accept it).

You doubt Reaper's sincerity due to his 'starring role in this fiasco'...yet, you expect the rest of to believe YOUR sincerity despite YOUR starring role in this fiasco.

I can't help but feel as though YOU are the one now 'playing nice' in order to smooth over your roll in all of this. You lashed at anyone who disagreed with you...not just those who attacked you. You labeled those who disagreed with you as 'true believers' and naive...you said the only reason anyone was disagreeing with you was due to their 'adulation' of Obama. Basically, to some great degree...you engaged in the same behavior you were claiming to be a victim of.

That having been said, I am glad to see that in the last words of your diary you finally get around to saying 'I apologize'. It would have gone MUCH further had you reached that point a day or two ago...but, it is accepted here and now as is.

Though I accept your apology, I don't think that I am the only one with whom you have burned bridges. Not a big deal, but, in the future you would be well served to pay attention to who your real foes are.

Shalom.


by Kysen on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:21:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No dice (2.00 / 2)

Though it was not stated clearly in my above comment....

Thank you for your apology.
It is appreciated.


by Kysen on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:29:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No dice (2.00 / 1)

kysen, if I were yu right now I would not be too proud of myself. You have not been interested in understanding or discussing. You have wanted to put my back to the wall from almost the beginning. the idea that I genuinely believed what I wrote seemed to be a concept far beyond you. I used to respect yu. What on earth got into you? Piling on, dishing the hate, making jokes at someone else's expense--thass all ok??? And now you still want to justify what yu did? Some people here are willing to say, yah. we got carried away. Not you and not reaper. You behaved in my opinion disgracefully. but rather than own it and your part in a virtrual gang-bang you want to parse some more. Credibility for you=0


by linfar on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:47:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No dice (2.00 / 5)

Ah, now see...

I guess I am Charlie Brown to your Lucy.

Shame, I had hoped that your intents were sincere.


by Kysen on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:57:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Own up to your own disgrace (2.00 / 4)

and your own shame.

It will give you more credibility.


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 04:00:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

lin. (none / 0)

kysen is one of the good guys here.  seriously.

i don't think its right or accurate to lump him in with the others.  seriously this flaming needs to STOP now or im outta here.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 11:14:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No dice (2.00 / 3)

Wow, I was liking your apology, but you gotta lot of nerve lashing out at the one who caught you with your hand in the cookie jar.  Deal with it, he knocked your smear out of the park, don't blame Reaper, blame yourself for being so gullible to right wing smears, because for some odd reason you really wanted it to be true. I loved your more recent diaries, absolutely beautiful and I told you so, but you need to focus on the big prize now.

I do thank you for you apology, it was of course well written, and it was absolutely critical for your survival here, because without it, using your words, "you won't be here much longer".  And we don't want that.
peace


by KLRinLA on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:41:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No dice (none / 0)

There was no smear. Not by me and not by anyone I know of. There is a mystery to be solved. But the smear advocates decided to have a little party and roast their democratic fellow blogger for awhile. yu probably would have enjoyed it--too bad you are a little late to the party.


by linfar on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:49:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No dice (2.00 / 5)

No I saw it, and there is no mystery to be solved.  It pure manufactured bullshit that you dove head first into.  And now you have to clean it off, and I am sure it is humiliating.  

I am giving you the benefit of the doubt with some tough love. My other option is complete repudiation; both options are not unfounded after your actions.  I'd say I, along with others accepting your apology, are being generous.

Finally, you say I would have loved seeing you getting roasted?  No, actually, I was severely dissappointed in this whole affair,  but putting your diary and its smear to rest had to be done.  Sorry you got suckered in by the right wing and completely embarrassed.  Get over it, refocus, come back with some legitimate diaries, we all know you have serious literary talent.


by KLRinLA on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 04:00:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

reaper seems to have solved it (2.00 / 1)

why not thank him for the trouble?


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 04:01:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

they said you were a troll before (2.00 / 1)

during the primary wars.

if you weren't forced off (as I was), then, what makes you think you're going now?

P.S. if you're unfairly banned, it's okay to make an alt (put in the sig who you are, keeps ya honest). just don't use both at once, and contact tech support.


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:51:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

gone again. WHAT THE FUCK? (none / 0)

damn the stupid admins.


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 04:43:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No dice (2.00 / 4)

lin-

Reaper starred in it and you have (or had) the chance to end it.

I cannot write much, since I'm in lab at the moment, but I would like to point out that I commented on the video you posted as indisputable evidence 24 hours beforehand. It didn't show what you claimed. From the way it looked, it appeared to be 180° opposite to what you showed.

However, if you were being honest in your TM post, I remain confused as to why you are uncertain whether or not the prayer was stolen. Either you can admit that what you said was incorrect, that the video doesn't show Obama's campaign stealing the note, or you can continue playing victim to Reaper's vast conspiracy to get people to not understand your "truth".


by TCQuad on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 04:30:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Please linfar (2.00 / 2)

Think of what you're saying here.

You're saying above that you are a victim of many things. And you're victimising reaper0bot0 in the next breathing, threatening him with banishment.

I replied compassionately downthread and thankyou for your apology.

But if you just last out at a diarist who was defending Obama from scurrilous claims that he abused  the confidences of the wailing wall, then you're just swinging from being a victim to a victimiser.

Seriously. Threatening to get 'other people' to ban a reaper0bot0 because he expressed what many of us thought about the Wailing Wall theft is verging on the vicious.


by duende on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 05:36:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please linfar (2.00 / 1)

"Verging on"?

I'd say it's beyond that.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 05:40:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Distressed, Depressed & Overwhelmed (2.00 / 11)

Linfar, most people aren't taking issue with the fact that you believe his people leaked the prayer.  The issue that I have, and many others have expressed, is that you directly implicated Obama's camp and accused them of going to the wall and stealing the prayers of others.

"Just the lack of respect for the prayers left inthe wall by Obama's entourage is pretty discouraging."

"They are actually taking prayers that people left OUT of the wall. And no one has talked about this aspect of what the Obama
entourage did$#@!@"

If you've got legitimate gripes with him, let him have it.  Right now, however, you are flat out making things up and then getting offended when people call you out on it.  After reading your diary I sympathize with what happened to you during your childhood, but you've got to understand where people like myself are coming from as well.

I want to hear about legitimate problems that Obama has, because airing these problems now makes him a stronger candidate in November.  These prayer accusations are fabricated problems, and they only serve to eat up our time that could be better spent addressing real issues or our opponent, John McCain.


And so, may evil beware and may good dress warmly and eat lots of fresh vegetables.
by thatpurplestuff on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 02:46:59 PM EST

Re: Distressed, Depressed (2.00 / 1)

TPS, in the video it is people from Obama's entourage who clearly take  peoples notes or prayers from the wall and read them. It is not clear if they put them back. This of course is not Obama. But it is right there in black and white that people from his entourage did this. Now I don't know how those people came to be traveling in his group, etc. But this part at least is on film.


by linfar on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 02:52:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Distressed, Depressed (2.00 / 7)

Those yeshiva students were part of the Obama entourage?  Or was it that single dude in a suit who was standing by the wall and then walked away?  The one we didn't see do anything other than stand there?


by Reaper0Bot0 on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 02:54:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

read below (none / 0)

looks like she was actually confuddled. not sure if her confusion had much factual basis, but...


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 04:45:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Distressed, Depressed (2.00 / 7)

I think this was fairly well proven as a complete mis-read of the video.


Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.
by jsfox on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 02:56:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Distressed, Depressed (2.00 / 5)

Linfar, I am honestly curious as to who you think are members of Obama's crew in the video.  Could you give me timestamps or descriptions of what they look like, cause the guy in the blue shirt taking the prayers does not at all look like he's employed by Obama... and if he was why would he need to steal the note back instead of just making a copy beforehand?  The whole thing just doesn't make sense.


And so, may evil beware and may good dress warmly and eat lots of fresh vegetables.
by thatpurplestuff on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 02:58:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Distressed, Depressed (none / 0)

I have no idea, TPS. honestly. I am as perplexed as anyone. What were they doing there? Why were they with Obama's group. I dunno. And nobody is saying. But I want to make it clear. I do not think or believe Obama did this. But it is less clear to me whether or not people in his "entourage" did?


by linfar on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:05:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Distressed, Depressed (2.00 / 3)

But what you are doing by accusing Obama's people of doing that when you have no idea who those people are is dishonest at best.

You need to look at yourself and try to figure out why every time Obama does something you cast it in the worst possible light.

At the least, it appears to be dishonest. At the worst, it looks like you are just hateful.


If you are not voting Obama, please let me know so I can replace your sorry ass with another new voter.
by Darknesse on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:11:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Distressed, Depressed (2.00 / 7)

That's where I am confused as well.  Those other people aren't with Obama's group somuch as they went up to the wall at the same time as Obama's group.  To assume that they are part of his entourage is an incredible leap, in my opinion, and makes little to no sense if you assume that their primary goal was to retrieve Obama's prayer the second Obama put it into the wall.  While you say it is less clear to you whether or not his people did this, you have flat out accused his people in other threads/sites.

That being said, I do appreciate you responding to me and explaining what it is that you see in the video.  We see different things in that same video, but at least I get an idea as to where you're coming from.  Cheers.


And so, may evil beware and may good dress warmly and eat lots of fresh vegetables.
by thatpurplestuff on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:12:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Distressed, Depressed (none / 0)

TPS, my understanding of the video is the Obama entourage was in a roped off area and no one else was allowed. So they had to be part of his entourage, etc. That's what makes it so damning. they aren't just strangers.  


by linfar on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:53:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

can you show some pics (2.00 / 2)

or drop me some links to justify this 'possibly unfounded' assumption?


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on